intro to this topic

to get an idea of why this specific forum was created, read this blog post.
http://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/male-privilege-intimate-violence-accountability/

i'm accountable for what i do and say. and i hope the same goes for pre kaarina.

let the discussion begin?

hello everybody,

for the sake of transparency, i will now repost pre kaarina's reply to the blog post. she posted the response in the comment section. but as i stated before. the discussion after more than 10 messages posted that way does not remain coherent because people press random reply buttons and the messages end up in a messy order, making it really difficult for anybody to read the discussion through, unless they've posted all the messages themselves, and followed the talk on a daily basis.

so. to make this a bit more inclusive. i choose to re-post pre kaarina's statement here, and reply to it in this forum.

Pre Kaarina wrote:

In the previous post there was a discussion about your tactics.First you said that you didn't have any, then you promised to give up stalking Dani if I stopped stalking you (which I had never done). Passed some time of silence and Milla broke silence for the first time, starting from where we left.

I guess you lied, or how do you rationalize this recent development?

You wrote a synopsis of the arguments made. Even though I do not agree with it 100%, IMO it is a good starting point.

"Instead you went full on with Dani’s reality. A reality that I claim to a large extent consists of pure distortion and lies."

What does your reality consist of? I think your reality consists of starting a new attack right when you have been cornered by me, where you should retreat and think your tactics over.

That is exactly the same way my alcoholic father worked. If you don't like being called an alcoholic personality, how about narcissistic (even if it is a misleading one)? The Social Center is full of people paranoid about Nazis, MC gangs, eavesdropping police... what makes those people so interesting in their minds that aforementioned groups would bother. That lay insanity was below you, you had to be harassed by leading phallocrats, who just don't happen to come all that clean in what comes to sexism.

What makes you, Milla, so special? The males in Satama do not bother with me.

"And I figure just as Pre Kaarina and myself being accountable for what we do and say. So should Dani. In a fair and equal society, Dani should be held accountable for what she does and says. Not have masses of people running to her rescue."

In a fair and equal society, you have betrayed contract of not stalking Dani. You are not a seeker of peace, but a trouble maker. You seek the pathological types and start a brawl with them, but unlike male, alcoholic bar brawlers, you don't want to get dirty and whacked.

hell pre kaarina,

Quote :

pre kaarina wrote: In the previous post there was a discussion about your tactics.First you said that you didn't have any, then you promised to give up stalking Dani if I stopped stalking you (which I had never done). Passed some time of silence and Milla broke silence for the first time, starting from where we left.

I guess you lied, or how do you rationalize this recent development?

I never said that I would stop confronting Dani on her sexist behaviors.

I guess you are referring to this statement I wrote to you in the comment thread of this blog post:

http://sosiaalikeskus.wordpress.com/2009/11/09/fuck-off-not-taking-this-shit-anymore/

15. and now instead of Fuck Off. I guess i will use your words: You are using the wrong “tactics” on me. and i preserve the same “right” as you have granted Dani. let’s see if it works:

Leave Me Alone. [start working on your own issues instead of projecting it all over me. i repeat: I am not your father. Dani is not you.]

With this my intention was never to give an impression of that I would stop confronting Dani (I don't see the point in it. And I don't understand why you would call confrontation stalking. In that case, me going to the social centre was you supporting me in stalking the place. And that the aggression used from the cult people there was necessary.)

I was saying in the statement above. That you are using a certain type of logic on Dani that you are not using on me. And I was fairly shook up and just sick and tired of just having to deal with this by myself with no support, so it came as a blow when you instead of asking what I had thought of Dani's statements said that I've had raped her and that I should leave her alone. (?!)

So. I was just pointing out that you were not using the right way to approach me in talking about this (like: a total lack of sensitivity..) and since you felt that Dani doesn't have to talk about anything unless somebody does the egg-shell walk to get to her, I figured I could tell you that you should respect me in that way as well.

I wasn't saying that I agreed with your morals or standards on doing things. I was just saying that if you grant Dani to tell people to FUCK OFF for talking to her in whatever way she figures is "wrong". Then i figured that you could grant me the same.

That was all I was saying. I wasn't saying that I live according the same standard that you say you have.

I was saying that I was hoping you preserve me the same rights that YOU've preserved for Dani. NOT the same right that I HAVE preserved Dani. (Big difference)

Hope this is now clear?

Also that in this statement there is no "stalking" on your side mentioned so maybe you are talking about another thing? Cause you here defending yourself against something that is not there. Just me saying that you should leave me alone, cause i figured that your world view on this is pretty confused and fucked up (unsupportive and sexist).

And that you should stop projecting your childhood traumas on me, and deal with power imbalances in your own relation with Petra - work on loving one another.

Then I went on a 10 day mediation course. And then I wrote you a mail about practical matters (my snail mail comes to your place, and i figured since we've bounced into some fundamental differences, that seem pretty damned hard to overcome, that i should arrange the mail to go elsewhere. i also felt rested enough to start a serious discussion on the topic of intimate violence and how the community responds to that. so i asked if you wanted to continue this discussion online or meet face to face in copenhagen.)

So the SHORT response to what you said. No. From my point of view I didn't lie.

AND here is the private correspondance in where I asked about the practical stuff and also asked of possible ways of moving on in the conflict between me and pre kaarina.

MAIL FROM ME TO PRE KAARINA:

hello pre kaarina,

thanks for letting me have my snail mail coming to your place. i will
ask patricia if i can have it going to her place, and if she could pick
up the other mail from yours and petra's place at some time, if she
agrees to the former.

i'm not cool about the conflict that you and have regarding the shit
i've been through with dani.

we could continue talking about it on the blog if you feel like it?

suggestions that i would feel more comfortable with:

1. i could write another blog post and have the discussion about it in
the comment section.
2. we could meet live in copenhagen

i would appreciate if you could express what you would wish yourself.

i can say clearly that i feel that you've been very unsensitive,
clumpsy, brute, (damaging) in your way of approaching me on this
issue. i feel and see that you've done wrong in this. i also see and
feel that you're not taking any responsibility for it, but instead
continue brutalising me with your speech. (talking about the facebook
and the comments on the blog post where you first spread the lies of
one source -- dani -- and back it up with the lies of another -- fox
news --) i'm quite shocked by your behavior and would really like for
the discussion to go more into specifics if it continues instead of
you writing a lot of labeling words "tantrum" "obscene" etc without
saying what specifically you are referring to.

i'm grateful for you posting the few (highly triggering) quotes by
dani about the "forced sleeping" (total bullshit) and not just leaving
it at you throwing lies in my face without any further explanation.

from what was said in the comment thread. a lot of it doesn't make
sense to me. so i feel very much that we are speaking from different
worlds and it's difficult to cross that gap if anything i say or do
has to be "prooved" or "not obscene" said in the "right tactic" way.

i appreciate your honesty though. and it was a pleasure to know you
the short time we connected through a common need of a different
scene. (the scene you are offering me now is no different to the one
i've experienced at the social centre when it comes to dani. and
that's why i really don't feel we can meet on this, and i wonder if we
ever could.)

milla

MAIL FROM PRE KAARINA TO ME:

Greetings!



thanks for letting me have my snail mail coming to your place. i will
ask patricia if i can have it going to her place, and if she could pick
up the other mail from yours and petra's place at some time, if she
agrees to the former.



OK.




i'm not cool about the conflict that you and have regarding the shit
i've been through with dani.



I am not fine with the resolution you came up with, but I think it is a close enough approximation.



we could continue talking about it on the blog if you feel like it?
suggestions that i would feel more comfortable with: 1. i could write another blog post and have the discussion about it in
the comment section.
2. we could meet live in copenhagen



How about meeting in Copenhagen?



i can say clearly that i feel that you've been very unsensitive,
clumpsy, brute, (damaging) in your way of approaching me on this
issue. i feel and see that you've done wrong in this. i also see and
feel that you're not taking any responsibility for it, but instead
continue brutalising me with your speech. (talking about the facebook
and the comments on the blog post where you first spread the lies of
one source -- dani -- and back it up with the lies of another -- fox
news --) i'm quite shocked by your behavior



I need to know the truth and I want to be impartial. I have only my intuition to follow. You have disagreed with Petra about this being a "game". Do you agree with Ulla's ethnomethodology or my method of trying to find out the truth by bringing you in to Satama? These were my moves in the game. I think I have found out a close approximation of the truth as you have. You have sexually harassed Dani. As an ex-pro I know kissing is even more intimate than having intercourse. That is beside the point. You are guilty as hell, Dani is also guilty. Your critique of the Social Center scene is valid and confirmed. Do you see my position? Dani sees it. Are you that blind?
People in Satama have probably felt that I am under your influence, that I am your ass-kisser. Now, I have taken a step being independent, but I am not going to tell them that I'm sorry, you guys were right about Milla all along. Because it is not true. Thanks to Karla, I know it.
I am a loose cannon in this game. Petra is right, I am a better player in this than you are.

What comes to Fox news, it has no importance. Even staunch feminists agree that some accusations about rape are unfounded. If you hold a position that a male is never framed as rapist you are really taking a lone position.

and would really like for
the discussion to go more into specifics if it continues instead of
you writing a lot of labeling words "tantrum" "obscene" etc without
saying what specifically you are referring to.



I already did.



i'm grateful for you posting the few (highly triggering) quotes by
dani about the "forced sleeping" (total bullshit) and not just leaving
it at you throwing lies in my face without any further explanation.



Dani does not want to discuss with you even with me as a mediator. I wish you're keeping your promise of leaving him alone. You've pushed him into corner, which can make him -or anyone, for that matter, very defensive. Sun Tzu and the Art of Warfare tells to leave the enemy an honorable way of retreating. Please, do not destroy your enemy and he will have a debt of gratitude, if he has any sense of honor left.

so i feel very much that we are speaking from different
worlds



Indeed. Give my thoughts a consideration, please.



i appreciate your honesty though. and it was a pleasure to know you
the short time we connected through a common need of a different
scene. (the scene you are offering me now is no different to the one
i've experienced at the social centre when it comes to dani. and
that's why i really don't feel we can meet on this, and i wonder if we
ever could.)



I let Dani off the leash and run, but I am not kissing his ass. He did not come out as a respectable person, his reputation is stained. If discipline did not teach him anything, how about mercy, letting it slide?
Think, think, think!

Yours, P K

MAIL FROM ME TO PRE KAARINA:

hello P K,

you write this letter. but there are heaps with questions in it. (or
at least question marks). i would suggest that there's a blog post
where this can continue. cause i'm not about to answer your questions
in private. i find it too abusive. and damaging for me. i want this to
be an open discussion in that case. [i hope this is clear. so that you
don't reply yet another long thing. but just say: A) yes. let's
continue this over the internet. write the blog post. or B) let's not
have any of this on the internet. let's just meet in copenhagen.]

THE ONLY THING I*M OPENING UP from the things you wrote in your reply:

as to the sexual harassment.

i asked to kiss dani (!!). she agreed (!!). we kissed. she had a
pouted mouth. twice i tried to kiss with open mouth. she opened her
mouth wide. i teased her and said that she should make up her mind, if
she want or not. (it was said in a nasty teasing way, and)

it was clear to me that way that she didn't want it. (when i tried beyond pusu)

this is what happened.

>> i asked. not in a "i don't care about your fucking feelings dani". but in a neutral way: could we kiss?

<< she said yes.

and then a physical no with her opening her mouth when i tried
something else than a pusu.

----

dani is omitting the fact that she gave consent to a kiss. and that i
asked for consent to a kiss.

(it still doesn't make it okay that i went beyond the pusu and tried
something else, overriding her physical no, and teasing her. i was the
one telling her this afterwards. that it wasn't okay. and even when
consent was given doesn't mean that you will feel okay with what
happened afterwards at another occasion.)

dani is lying about the 'forced' physical "pleasing"
dani is lying about the 'forced' "sleeping with"
dani is lying to you about us having "talked this through" [wasn't
that quite clear in my reaction to what you wrote?]

dani has been lying about a lot of things. dani is lying about a lot of things.

so. when you are talking about my sexual harassment. i feel we are
still speaking about two completely different things. because you
agree to and defend a lot of dani's claims that i can honestly not,
and absolutely not agree to. because they are lies. (not just
differing realities. or different interpretations. but actual
obfuscation and untruthful reconstruction of what really occurred.)

otherwise:
i'm okay with meeting in copenhagen. maybe i can try to find some
support in meeting up. don't know what kind of people will be here.
maybe someone with sensitive skills in dealing with conflicts. [you
lack them]

pissed off at your unimpartial Sexist brutal clumpsiness,
milla

AFTER THIS i reposted a part of what i said in the mail about the sexually abusive behavior that i feel i own in this mess of distorted lies from Dani (i wish she could explain herself further in my face instead of reassuring people behind my back that the lies that she's spreading "have already been talked through" with me..)

AFTER I POSTED this, then Pre Kaarina posted another statement in the comment thread.

So i figured there was interest on her side to continue the discussion. And in an attempt to take care of myself and have this a bit more organized and less overwhelming to go through for the people interested in following this (including myself) if figured I would just go according the more structured form I had suggested to P K in the email exchange. Write a blog post. And I changed it to a forum thread as well to make the discussion more tranparent and easier to follow.

I guess this is my reasons for acting the way i did. i wouldn't call it lying. and if Pre Kaarina still figures it is lying i would like to have it thoroughly explained to me why. In the same way as I've now made an effort to explain why I've functioned the way I've done.

Quote :

Pre Kaarina wrote: What does your reality consist of? I think your reality consists of starting a new attack right when you have been cornered by me, where you should retreat and think your tactics over.

I don't understand what you mean by this. In what way am I "cornered" by you?

I feel I'm free to try out anything I feel like doing. If I felt like it I could just ignore you, take care of myself, skip this whole abusive leftist scene joke. Instead I figured that this discussion is important in a sense, cause these things never get talked about in a sensible way (they are always individualized and put for "later" and in the end there's serious aggression towards the one wanting to talk), and when they explode because of negligent ignorance then there is a swift mobilisation to sweep it all under the carpet.

I want a clean house. Get it all out in the open. You partly helped me with that by quoting Dani (nobody has told me she was saying this kind of stuff about me before).

I want to continue the cleaning. And you are for some reason thinking that this is a bad tactic and that I should go to a corner and hang my head in shame. Then: I don't understand what you are talking about.

Quote :

That is exactly the same way my alcoholic father worked. If you don't like being called an alcoholic personality, how about narcissistic (even if it is a misleading one)? The Social Center is full of people paranoid about Nazis, MC gangs, eavesdropping police... what makes those people so interesting in their minds that aforementioned groups would bother. That lay insanity was below you, you had to be harassed by leading phallocrats, who just don't happen to come all that clean in what comes to sexism.

What makes you, Milla, so special? The males in Satama do not bother with me.

I don't mind being called an alcoholic. Because it's true. And I've exposed heaps of people to my sad abusive drunkard ways during the 15 years I've been stuck in this destructive habit. There are plenty of people I should apologize to.

Unlike your father I have not been physically violent when drunk. I did not pick on a kid and terrorize that kid with physical abuse.

But a lot of unconstructive aggression has come out that way. If you feel like it you could start a specifc thread discussing my alcoholism and my experiences with that.

So. I still don't understand your comparison with the reasons I gave for continuing the discussion on intimate violence and wanting to take it seriously - how it's related to your alcoholic father beating you as a child.

AND: wanting to make this clear. that i've now been sober for two weeks. and i intend to keep it that way. cause one profeminist man from the states was saying that she wouldn't like to engage with active drunks in her life. which really made me think. and i think i choose people instead miserable escape in alcohol.

Your interpretation of me as an "alcoholic personlity" when it comes to confronting injustice.. Well. When I was little and my mother could tug my hair so hard that I would wake up with lumps of hair on my pillow. Or chase me around the flat and me crawling under the bed pressing up against the wall to escape her beating me with a belt. I protested then as well. I showed open anger then as well. And there was no alcohol in my life. When boys chased me around the school yard touching me, i shouted at them, if they caught me and held me down i bit them.

I was not on alcohol then. So my way of defending myself is more related to an older pattern in my life than the drinking pattern.

So I would say that I disagree with you on that me wanting to confront Dani has anything to do with my abusive alcoholism (or Dani's abusive alcoholism. We've both been abusive and depressive towards one another under the influence.) Me wanting to talk about these things is not related to me being an abusive alcoholic. It's related to her sexism.

You said that you haven't been abused at the social centre? When you went there with me, you were constantly interrupted. And Markus was aggressively telling you to shut up with a finger in your face. She was with physical force trying to pull you out of that place. You are also saying that people are telling you that you are my "ass-licker". Which I would say is just as abusive as you saying something like that about Pahkina without even making an effort to meet her first!

In what way is getting a finger in your face being told to shut up, and then physically aggressed upon "not bothering" you? Is this accepted male behavior in your book? In the same way as you accept a bit of sexism and misogyny from Dani's side cause "nobody's perfect"?

Quote :

Pre Kaarina wrote: "And I figure just as Pre Kaarina and myself being accountable for what we do and say. So should Dani. In a fair and equal society, Dani should be held accountable for what she does and says. Not have masses of people running to her rescue."

In a fair and equal society, you have betrayed contract of not stalking Dani. You are not a seeker of peace, but a trouble maker. You seek the pathological types and start a brawl with them, but unlike male, alcoholic bar brawlers, you don't want to get dirty and whacked.

I don't know if then in this case you are the "pathological type" that I'm "brawling" with and that anything you say about me (tantrum, stalking, raping, narcissistic, obscene, "Riikka was right" "you are like my father" etc etc) is not getting me "dirty and whacked"...

I still don't get why it's impossible to ask a guy to be accountable. I still don't understand why this should be labled stalking by you.

And I repeat. I've never said to you that I would lay off confronting Dani.

That wouldn't be a fair deal.

posting my last two statements made on the comment thread of the blog post:

Quote :

by Milla

writing on the comment thread. since my answers were fairly long on the forum.

main thing for pre kaarina seems to be this.

Pre Kaarina wrote:
“you promised to give up stalking Dani if I stopped stalking you (which I had never done).”

i would like for you to come up with a quote where i tell you these things.

time for you to come up with some proof as well. im not the only one having to be accountable in this. i hope. it wouldnt be fair at least. but maybe you dont feel like being fair?

and the second one..

Quote :

by Milla

fearing that Pre Kaarina dropped the discussion (cause usually there’s very quick and eager response.)

(((((
Pre Kaarina wrote:
“you promised to give up stalking Dani if I stopped stalking you (which I had never done).”

i wrote:
“i would like for you to come up with a quote where i tell you these things.”
)))))

or:
I guess you lied, or how do you rationalize this recent statement?

((((((
Pre Kaarina wrote:
In a fair and equal society, you have betrayed contract of not stalking Dani. You are not a seeker of peace, but a trouble maker.
))))))

In a “fair and equal society” i have “betrayed” a contract..

In a patriarchal society I have definitely broken and betrayed the gender contract between the sexes. I’m definitely and proudly (in spite of vilification and ridicule) trying to uproot the rotting and smelly status quo of society as we know it today.

[Note: These last few comments will also be posted in the forum.]

There are too many messages and threads in this discussion all over for me to gap everything.

However after cursory reading (and following this blog for months), to me it seems like this

-Dani indeed seems to have manipulative behavior patterns. Of course this is a quick judgement as I haven't heard his version, however what Milla writes makes sense to me and I have no reason to believe that Milla lies.
-However I do not quite see that Milla's "confronting" with Dani may at this point really change things. I think Milla has made her point more than once, and now things are slipping into stalking and harrassing. Of course at times it could be ok to harrass some people, but I doubt that Dani will be ready to reconsider things by "forcing" him to do it. In the end, it may only come from himself, sad but true. But if he continues his ways, he will have a reputation which will reach people he is engaging with, and they will have a chance to make their own opinions. Maybe one day someone Dani really cares will have enough influence on him for him to make a change.
-As of Dani "raping" Milla, sounds like bullshit to me. Behaviour in border of sexual harrassment (which apparently took place) is for sure not that cool either, but nothing which could have "traumatized" Dani and such not an issue for a public internet court. To me this seems like a big scandal for a rather small event.

Just my 2 cents.

There are too many messages and threads in this discussion all over for me to gap everything.


pornstars
doc johnson

hi mafiafran,

i made this forum and have access to pushing buttons to remove and edit posts.

i noticed that you have posted three different posts where you've quoted pieces of what others have said in a discussion, without adding new text. i also noticed that you had two links to commercial sites in your posts.

would you be willing to say something about what you wish to contribute to this site, discussion? i'm thinking of removing your posts, would you have any reason for why they should stay? if i don't get a reply within two weeks, i'll take the comments off, since to me, they don't make sense, and i would need further explanation to keep them up.

take care,
milla